We can t deny knowing abortions are happening

A picture in a World War II history book will always haunt me. It is not of D-Day or of our assault on Iwo Jima. It is a picture of German civilians being forced by advancing American soldiers to view the remains of the bodies of Jewish women who had starved during a 300-mile march forced upon them by the retreating Nazis.

The German civilians walk by, glance, then look away from the upturned faces of the dead.

When residents of Weimar, Germany, were forced to tour nearby Buchenwald, they said they did not know of the horrors that existed in the Nazi extermination camp. The stench of death and the odor from the crematories covered the countryside, but the residents insisted they did not know.

They did not know.

I take it your not a female due to your name being Tom, So you will never have to deal with the pressure of ALL the factors of being pregnant. In this case i dont really think it gives you a right to have an oppinion or express it at all. You cant judge a person till you have walked a mile in their shoes right?

Let me give you a scenario. You are intimate with a woman. The condom you are using breaks and she gets pregnant. Are you emotionally and financially ready to raise a child? And if you were a single female with limited income what would you do if you got pregnant and the father was not around to help? You probably don't know the correct answer to either. Hopefully you have never gotten a woman pregnant and you certainly have never been pregnant!

Keep Dreaming, MadMinnn. You couldn't insult me if you tried. All I did was refute your claim that men don't have to pay child support. They do, if not they're dead beat dads who are hunted down and put in prison. You seem to be overly concerned with the physical-something you'd care to share? Men should be just as emotionally involved as women. You have your opinion, I have mine. I believe abortion is wrong; the murder of an innocent child who can't speak up. You obviously don't believe that-hence the difference in opinion.

To Josh: Sorry but men and women are NOT equal when it comes to pregnancy, a womans body becomes the provider men do zero, I really should not have to explain this. If you became insulted over the "real men" comment I must have touched a nerve. But the truth is the truth men have nothing to lose beyond a orgasm all the physical risks are on the female and thus there is no equality for men in this argument. And please Josh married men dodge child support all the time, I have known countless women who never got even half of what they were owed and some got none at all so again you are either naive or very young. But if it pleases you go on and believe that all men pay their child support and men have as much physical stake in a pregnancy as a women, enjoy!

To To Josh wrote on Oct 18, 2007 4:05 PM, I respectfully disagree completely with your opinion. The man and woman are equal in the decision, after all a woman can't get pregnant without the man. It's pretty obvious you have very little respect for men. To MadMimm, well I'm a REAL MAN and I happen to disagree with you. Any other insults you would like to offer? What you offered was pretty weak. Married men can't opt out of child support; mandated by law-nice try, but you failed.

I am not going to get on here and tell people how wrong their choices are or even that abortion needs to be illegal (as I personally feel.) I believe it is a choice to be made by the person getting it. While I feel it's wrong, if someone else feels it's right, who am I to tell them they are wrong? My question I would like to pose is for the Pro-lifers: With the current overpopulation and economic disaster we are in, how do you propose supporting all the millions of lives that would be saved? All I can see is even more economic disaster as we would have to pay more into welfare or more taxes to support "kids homes"? How would you change this?

Can a woman who gets knocked-up one minute and then a couple days later does an about-face and decides to abort- or who never thunk it through at all in the first place, really be trusted with such important choices? " choose to abort you mean? Is it better to trust the same woman with motherhood and the nuturing and care for an infant? Maybe all men should be sterilized and we should reproduce with cloning. remove men from the picture completely.I don't want people making choices for my body. men are the problem. i don't know many i would want to father children, or even have a relationship with. until then, the only choice is pro-choice.

On another note, If your going to take away legal abortion, then lets go one step further and put an iud in every girl at the age of 12 until her and her husband (what ever age that is) can show proof of being able to raise and take care of mentality/and the cash. then they can reproduce. We have to stop the over growth of unwanted babies some how, right?? and if you can take the right to choose away then lets take away their right to reproduce!!

It makes me a lil sick (being a mother of two) knowing there are girls that use this as a form of b/c! That being said, there are ppl who should NOT reproduce. Either because they are not capable of taking care of the baby OR because they can't stop using drugs long enough to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption. There are WAY too many children in this country that are unwanted! As for PP I think they are god sent. They do a wonderful service. I think the woman should be able to choose, the man has no say, unless its his wife and its not a life or death situation.

In many states, these double-murder laws were pushed by the anti-choice folks, for the purpose of later being able to cry "Hypocrisy!" as you are now doing. The pro-choice movement has fought these laws at just about every turn. At any rate, a fetus/baby is incapable of giving consent (both functionally and legally), so its consent is a moot issue (and the comparison to Hilter still falls flat).

To: Re...or whoever you are. Can a man who knocks up a woman and walks away from the whole scenario (this includes married men who opt out of their child support) be trusted with anything? Like it or not this is a good portion of male mentality and has been for centuries and yet men run government and religion how can that be according to you? Your weak attempt at a convincing argument was humorous at best. To: Chubby.....thank you!

I'm just wondering how it is that men are always the ones the most up in arms about this. It's not their body that would have to be pregnant or have an abortion - they really have no say in the matter. And also, how completely irresponsible is it to compare abortion and the Holocaust? You're obviously not Jewish.

Bull Squat Pure and simple. An embryo is not a "person" by any functional definition you may choose. No separate physical being, no independent existence - and no name, rank or serial number. Further along, the embryo morphs into a fetus that, oh my, still lacks independent physical functioning (eyesight, breathing, a working immune system) until very late in the term of prenatal existence. No "person" at all and no absolute assurance of ever becoming one. Yet, for many THAT DO get to the individual person stage, poor health care, inadequate nutrition and sub-standard housing await AND THOSE INFANTS GET NO SYMPATHY. What is so "moral" about that??

You don't get it. Some people consider a fetus to be a human. In that belief, abortion would be killing a human without getting it's consent. With this belief, it is logical to equate the killing of millions of fetus's without consent to the killing of millions of people by Hitler. I am not asking you to consider a fetus to be a human or to agree with any of these beliefs. However, can you at least see how people might make this connection.

Takes a silly premise and carries it to insane conclusions. The writer points at one picture from the Holocaust and tries to compare it to the information stream of the Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life conflict? Get serious. Could you assemble all of the media material (from foreign and domestic sources) related to the human rights abuses of all the Axis nations from 1930 - 1945, YOU COULD NOT SCRATCH THE base of the mountains of media just the Pro-Lifers churn out in a year. Maybe you need to learn that just throwing around words like "babies" will not work? These issues are complex and deeply rooted in our culture and the structures of our society. Face the political, social and economic facts. Deal with the deeper causes and maybe, just maybe you will get a little of the change you want.

Thanks for the reply! In regards to MY ignorance, how about this: I'm a woman, I know people who've had abortions, I have personally seen an abortion procedure- and I don't for one minute think that people who have abortions don't regret it. Oh and by the way, I'm pro-life AND pro-choice! I never said a man shouldn't have something to say about it but that all depends on the relationship we're talking about here. Let's face it, a lot of times it's a love 'em and leave 'em situation and no one is left to decide but the woman. ALSO, I don't remember you or any other man in the history of evolution being able to carry a child himself so I'm sorry but IT"S NOT YOUR DECISION! I think it's important to say that there are measures that can prevent pregnancy and there are people who can handle the consequences of their actions- and then there are people who don't. The people who don't need all the help they can get. Maybe you should partake in some of that help they offer.

Holy cow, people! I know that the 2 sides of this issue will never agree. But there are some valid statements on here. One poster said that the majority of abortions done are in the first trimester. They probably are not bloody and gory enough for the pro-lifers, huh? It was also stated that if free birth control were available there would be far less unwanted pregnancies. Just a reminder that all issues are not black and white. And how do you know what discission you would make when you have never been faced with the dilema. Do we really need more unwanted and uncared for children in this world?

I agree that birth control seems to be the answer, but two wrongs do not make a right. You call it a necessary evil, I just think it is "evil" (I don't think those who get abortions are evil, just misinformed and scared). I just don't think there is any way to justify abortion. Its just plain wrong. Make a responsible sex ed standard and provide birth control so we don't have this problem, but most of all, outlaw the killing of an innocent.

Josh, I know women who have had abortions (two for health reasons) and all are grateful for having a choice. You claim to be "all life NO abortions" GREAT move to Nicaragua or El Salvador where the church reigns and no abortion is allowed not even to save the life of the mother, do you know what an ectopic pregnancy is? Good ole male deity worshipping religions know how to keep a woman in her place! Men should NOT have a say in pregnancy since their only contribution is an orgasm (real MEN agree with this) they have no physical dog in the fight. Women should not be made by law to share her body with anyone or anything. Tell me Josh would you be for a law that would make you be a bone marrow or organ doner for a child if you were a match?

We invaded, pardon me, liberated, Iraq for the THREAT of Saddam Hussein killing thousands with weapons of mass destruction. In Darfur, genocide is HAPPENING and the US is doing nothing. You have competely missed my point. There are so many pro-lifers screaming about the murder of unborn babies that they have completely ignored that there are hundreds of thousands of men, women, children and, yes, babies that are dying through ethnic cleansing. Why don't you worry about the care and treatment of people that are already here on this Earth? Some of those people, children included, are being burned alived, raped, and dismembered. But instead you focus on the 1 inch sack of cells inbedded in a woman's uterus. Which, let's face it, that is when the majority of abortions are performed - around the 8th week, not the 8th month as many of you portray.

In IL, if someone kills a pregnant woman, that person can be charged for two murders. Why is it that if I murder the mother and the baby, I kill two but if I only kill the baby, it is a medical operation? Error on the side of life. I would happily raise any strangers child before I would watch them get cut up by the hands of a butcher and ripped from their Mom's body.

I doubt that many liberals think abortion is anything better than a necessary evil. The key is to make it a lot less necessary and the liberal way to fix that isn't to joini the pro-lifers and start wailing about Jesus. Take a look at the problem. What causes the need for abortion? Unwanted pregnancies. What causes unwanted pregnancies? Ignorance, lack of access to contraception. How to fix those? Complete science based sex ed and easy/free access to a variety of forms of birth control. If every woman who was having sex and didn't want to get pregnant were using some form of birth control, there'd be very few unwanted pregnancies and even fewer abortions.

PP saved my life through their health services. they allow me to be prevent unwanted pregnancies. they provide health screenings and education for those who otherwise wouldn't have access. if people wised up and actually took responsibility over their sex lives, there wouldn't be a need for abortions. If parents stopped pretending their teens will automatically stay virgins or come to them if they have questions, we wouldn't need abortions. Frankly, I don't want to hear more news stories about abused unwanted kids, i don't want to hear foster home horror stories, or see futures ruined by stupid mistakes, see couples staying together only to ruin the kids lives..

I'm a liberal. I hate guns, I am for affirmative action, I'm for the use of (most) birth control, I am for universal health care, I am anti-war, I am for gay marriage, I hate the use of torture the US now thinks is ok in Cuba and Iraq. I goto church occasionally, but am not what one would call a religious person. And I am against abortion. I agree that killing an innocent baby is one of the worst things about this country and I agree it is comparable to any other example of mass killings. I do not understand why my fellow liberals support abortion when it is against everything else we stand for. Instead of just blowing off the subject, take a good hard look at it. I think most people who are not heartless and who give the matter any serious thought would agree that abortion is wrong.

To "To Josh" Explain to me what I don't know about. You make no remarks refuting any of my claims. Why don't you explain it to me? I personally know a woman who had an abortion, and who regrets it immensely. I wonder, have you personally ever dealt with what abortion does? I doubt it, based on your comments. I'm PRO-LIFE, not pro choice. All life-no abortions, no death penalty. I think the male should have an equal stand in the pregnancy, since the male is half of the reason why it happened. Keep on criticizing, it shows how ignorant you are.

If the woman who had the abortion took millions of other pregnant women and forced them to have abortions, then your arguement may be valid. I find it so amusing that you want our government to step in to stop abortion. Why aren't you out crying for our government to step in in Darfur. Genocide is happening, to millions of living breathing human beings, and our government is doing nothing about it. What about all of the innocent Iraqi civilians that are dying? Why aren't you asking our government to do something about that? Why don't you start protesting for human rights of those that are alive and not just ones that are the size of a marble imbedded in a woman's uterus.

Failing to have compassion? Compassion is granting a woman full personhood over her body as opposed to allowing an embryo, a man, a government full of men , or a religious organization headed and founded by men the final say. Two individuals cannot have rule over one body, the woman is in charge and that is the bottom line.

That was the wonderful thing about Hitler, the gas chambers were much less cruel than butchering the people. That's probably the reason the other countries didn't get too concerned until he started stretching his borders. Nonetheless, I suppose we thought, that was HIS country and he had the right to do as he saw fit. This truly is a great letter!

Some of you just crack me up!!! You talk about the horrors of abortion and how viable babies are left to die. The terrible disgusting pictures of abortion. How babies brains are sucked out. You are describing late term abortions, at least into the second trimester, where they are normally performed for extraordinary circumstances. I believe one of you pro-lifers stated it was only 1% of abortions. So you are using scare tactics to describe something that you, yourself, have said doesn't even happen that often. How many of those 5000 abortions were performed in the first tri-mester or even the first 2 months? You don't want to talk about those kind of abortions, do you? It doesn't have enought blood, guts and gore for you, huh?

I will agree with your posting 100%-IF we were talking about my dog. Humans are endowed with the power of rational thought and logical decision making faculties. Most of us do not attack others if they get to close to our dinner plates, make love to the leg of the chair, or urinate on the carpet. We make a concious decision based on logic to control those actions and emotions. As another poster put it, if you need to satisfy your animal urges to the point where you cannot control your actions, please remember that a partner is not always necessary for relief, and that there are actions you can take that would not result in pregnancy but still allow you to indulge your lust.

The would-be mother is the Hitler that determines who should die and the doctor is just like the ones in Germany that actually did the dirty-work. The only difference is that we don't have one big Hitler doing mass murder. But the main likeness, as the author states, is that we have lots of people observing this injustice, failing to have compassion.

Mankind is hardwired for sex in order to preserve the species, and nature makes no distinction between "moral" and "immoral" sex. Sex ranks below a desire for safety, and the desire to quench hunger. Religion puts a damper on sex, and in some low level ways, that is a good thing, because rampant sex could play havoc on an organized society. Republicans have sex just like Democrats, and"immoral" sex as well. Rush Limbaugh goes to the Dominican Republic with his viagra, and Larry Craig taps his foot in dirty bathrooms. What makes a small but loud corner of the Republican party crazy however, is the idea that other people are actually enjoying sex.

I am definitely not for abortion, I think the act is awful. Also, I believe the government should help with child health care, and make birth control readily available. When used correctly welfare is a wonderful thing, unfortunately you have people who take advantage of the system, but sometimes there is no way to get around that. I really think that this is a good middleground for both groups.

There really should be a limit on how many times this topic can be posted in a month. It's the same stuff being said and the same stuff being said back. But, trying to compare this to WW2 just shows how nutty you are. Before you even try to compare, why don't you go ask the people who were there if they think they can be compared to a volunteer procedure. You make me sick Tom Tock.

I've seen the results of abortions and it is indeed appaling. But what's even more appaling is when Thumpers don't support sex ed and birth control and create a climate of shame with regards to premarital sex. Do you think a couple with enlightened parents who talk openly and accurately about sex will end up with an unwanted pregnancy? No because they'll be well aware of how their body works and how to obtain birth control. So many fundies get abortions behind their parents' backs because their parents are so strict about sex and shame the kids for their natural and dare I say God-given urges.

Not everyone who gets pregnant got that way through "sexual exploits", as you put it. Married couples who use contraception can get pregnant. Perhaps they just can't afford another child. Women get raped. There are other senarios that you are just completely ignoring. Like it or not, women have the freedom of choice.

FREEDOM TO CHOOSE . plain and simple .please dont try forcing your beleifs on others .they dont care of your thoughts on this . go thump your bibles in church and leave us heathens alone .if that what you want. and by the way how many of you thumpers have ever been to planned parent hood .and how many of you can say that your daughter has never had a ABORTION.she may have with out you knowing .

Conception? Brain waves? Heart beating? If you say conception, what support do you have for this? The Bible doesn't mention when life begins. Also, since death is the absence of life, when does death occur? 'Brain death' is what is often referred to by doctors now, and if that is true then life would begin when brain activity begins. Embryonic stem cells are one of the first building blocks of life, but few would call them a child. And if you believe they are life and have a soul, then why not grieve over the billions that never develop any further through natural processes. The point is that those who are dogmatic about this issue are inconsistent and intellectually simple, because as of yet science cannot tell us when life begins.

It's really obvious you don't know what you're talking about! Don't speak for women and don't speak for pro-choice people. You just don't know what we know. I love how people who are on soap boxes don't even realize that this very controversial subject is a very personal subject and not up for debate by anyone who is not in the situation. No, it's not a pretty procedure but neither are a lot of procedures! Furthermore, I seem to remember something at PP saying "making every child a wanted child"- okay they didn't say "baby" but you get the drift. Do some more research on this organization and leave the decisions up to the people who need to make them.

It is the basic nature of animal life to reproduce. You lack perspective by saying people should just choose to not have sex. Even with all of the sex Ed. in the world, people will still be driven to instinctually perform their evolutionary duty. Human beings have been striving to "mate" for a million years, we have only been educating them about it for a bout 30 years.

It's not sex as a whole that Republicans and conservatives speak against, it's sexual immorality and sex between people who aren't ready yet (i.e. teenagers). Besides, it's pretty much common sense that if you're not ready to take care of a child, then maybe you're not ready to have sex (emotionally). Some people feel that sex is best experienced in the right conditions, and when it's done at the wrong times can create excess baggage that stays with a person for years.

Who opposes birth control? I don't know many republicans that do. Unless you're talking about RU-486 or Plan B. Regarding the pill, condoms, sponge, etc that are conception preventers, I don't have a problem. I do have reservations about medication one takes AFTER the fact to prevent the pregnancy, because many times it amounts to an abortion, even if you don't go to a clinic. That's what Pharmacists are against.

I never understood why some women simply seem unwilling or incapable of invoking their freedom of choice a few hours before that tiny heart starts beating deep within their belly. She wishes to hold tight to the sacred right to cherish the abortion decision- but what about the one to keep her legs closed- or the one to swallow a pill, or make sure her man is properly outfitted with a smidgen of plastic down below? What the helll is so hard about THAT? I've known women and later learn that they've had abortions as a means of birth control and I quite simply can never even look at them the same way anymore. The absolute lowest of the low, they are.

I could not disagree more with the idea your letter perpetuates- but I will concede that what you write is well-constructed and compelling. Within my family of 6 persons a deeply personal decision was made by a woman to have an abortion. That decision was her's alone to make, and the busniess only of those in her family that she shared it with. No one else- no one- had any right to know or to have an opinion. Due to her personal decision, she remains alive and part of our family today.

I really wish some of the people who support abortion would take the time to see what the procedure does. My guess is that about half of the supporters have never seen, nor want to see the effects. They will speak up for the "rights of the mother" but conveniently forgot that they were once also in their mothers' wombs. If PP and organizations like them would stop clouding the issue with statements like "its' for the health of the mother" which, by the way, is the reason only about 1% of the time, than a real discussion could ensue. Until then, pro-abortion supporters will try to fog the issue.

PP went to court years ago and had the term baby changed. At the time it was until the baby drew it's first breath now some are wanting that changed. In the case of a botched abortion and the baby is born alive they now say the "mother" intended to rid herself of a baby so they now are advocating letting that living breathing baby die by withholding medical intervention and nutrition. These are sick people and even though they refuse to see it(there is non so blind as he who will not see)they are clutched right in satans hand and are doing good works for him. Who else would argue and fight so hard to kill babies? In some abortions the abortionist will first inject the baby with tranquilizers or pain meds or both before ripping that child apart. Why, because it has been proven a baby very early in gestation will flinch if touched or hear loud sounds.

I am not forcing my positions on anybody. I merely stated the obvious. Pregnancy is caused by having sexual intercourse. Refraining from such activity guarantees no unwanted pregnancies. However, some people today are all about having a "good time" now without thinking of any consequences or ramifications. The easiest and most assured form of pregnancy control is self control. However if you are less human and more animal than some-consider that you don't really need a partner to achieve gratification. Just take matters in hand...And since when has anybody that wanted sex in this country considered the position of the republican party, the church, or anybody else in their decision. The absolute best birth control pill is an aspirin. Held tight between the knees. Question-which republicans oppose birth control? The ones complaining about condoms being passed out by the school nurse in grade school without parent concent?

Just maybe, making abortions illegal will make people think twice about their sexual exploits? There are many women that have multiple abortions. It's certainly possible that after having to keep one, they might decide to change their mind. And keep in mind that not every woman who has an abortion is poor. Many are young middle-class kids who got in over their heads. They COULD afford to raise the child, but of course they say they can't because they have to pay for college, two cars, a big screen TV, a bigger house (that will get foreclosed in 5 years), etc.

Nothing about abortion is rare. Did you read the numbers 5000 a week. That's not rare, unless you're talking sand particles on a beach. Safe? There's a book out there called Lime 5 that shows just how "safe" abortion really is. The sad thing is, most of the injuries/deaths that are told about in the book were given a different cause of death. You see, abortionists and pro-abortion lobbyists don't want deaths to be caused by abortions, so they encourage doctors to call them "complications from pregnancy.

Tom Tock is obviously way out there w/ his comparison. Thank Goodness for PP, they are about knowledge and protection/provention. If abortion was illegal there would be people in alleys w/ clothes hangers. You would be suprised who has had an abortion. It's not just the poor, and young, it's all ages, races and income.

Well written letter, Tom. I don't exactly agree with the Nazi imagery, but I think everyone gets your point. Thank You Newsflash. That's a good point, one that PP and abortion supporters would like to be ignored. I wonder why PP nevers uses the word babies....? Could it be that they are afraid to confront what abortion actually does?

This just in...they now know what causes pregnancy! And the good new is (with the sole exception of rape) it is totaly preventable! What is required is a little self control. Personal accountability has even been mentioned. Seems people don't have to have sex. They choose to (with the sole exception of rape). Film at eleven.

Tom, why don't you put all of your efforts into creating a culture and economy that tolerates child-raising for people with low incomes? Make sure that there is a daycare at every workplace and that even the lowest salary will buy diapers and formula and healthcare and everything that a child will need. Obviously, you can't accomplish that. What we're left with is an entire economic class that equates childbirth with financial suicide. Its cute how you pro-lifers bemoan the actual practice of abortion but refuse to do anything to fix the underlying cause. Abortion is simply a DIY financial decision made by poor people, and frankly...its a smart decision in most cases. This is how bad our economic system is for many people - they'd rather suck the brains out of their own children than slide further into poverty.

What you fail to understand about true conservatives is that yes we want to cancel all government sponsored social programs. We also want people to volunteer their time and money to help. Nobody is stopping you or your neighbor from opening up your home to the less fortunate. Nobody is telling you that you can't donate to a private organization that helps. True compassion comes from going out of your way to help the less fortunate, not voting for big government to tax everyone more.

How about the "depravity" of another quarter-million unwanted children per year if safe, legal abortion was unavailable? Tom, your attitude makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution. I don't know of anyone who wants to see more abortions performed; better to prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place, and Planned Parenthood helps with that. How have YOU helped? Have you adopted any children? It's time for you to mind your own business.

There would be very few unwanted fetuses or babies or unborn children if you Thumpers would get over your opposition to universal availability of birth control and sex ed. Birth control is one of the main things PP does, by the way. I'm of the "safe, legal, and very rare" school of thought. The worst, however, is the Pro-life-until-birth group (mostly Republican Thumpers) who wants as many unwanted babies born as possible (no birth control, remember?) but wants to cancel all social programs like welfare for single mothers and childrens' health care. Its almost like they're saying "We want as many children born extreme poverty as possible." Yet another letter from another extremist.

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